THE PASCOE DEBATES - DEALING WITH HATE,
BBC RADIO SOLENT, 15 AUGUST 2006

Presenter: Tristan Pascoe (TP) - Radio Solent
Wassim Qadir (WQ) - Foundation of British Muslims
William Shawcross (WS) - Writer and journalist
Awatif Umar (AK) - The Muslim Sisterhood
Jeremy McClintock (JM) - Author and war reporter

TRISTAN PASCOE: Ok, thanks for bringing us the Weatherzone, Pete, be seeing you tomorrow at the same time.

Pete: No problem, if y.....

TP: Right! Without further ado, let's move to the main meat of today's show: what is happening to our British society today and who's to blame? With me, I have Wasim Qadir, Spokesman of the radical bloc, the Foundation of British Muslims, William Shawcross, writer and journalist and one of the most convincing advocates for the war in Iraq that I've come across; Awatif Umar (did I say that right? Ok, thank God for that!) of the Muslim Sisterhood; and Jeremy McClintock, who reported on the war in the Balkans in the early 90s and is good friends with my Producer, Tom. Sadly, Surrey Heath MP Michael Gove and outspoken DJ Bruno Brooks had to cancel at short notice.

Can we have a democracy when there are enemies of that concept within? Awatif Umar, your organisation represents the poor people who are likely to suffer the most out of any advance of radical Islam - what do you say to that?

AWATIF UMAR: Well, firstly, I would say that the family circumstances of your birth play a major part in this. Because I am a religious Muslim woman, many people, particularly Christian liberals, often look at me as if I am a de facto victim of those same anti-democratic spectres you refer to.

TP: Are you saying they don't exist?

AU: Of course I'm not. We're all too familiar with the handful of extremist Imams who have broadcast messages in the UK of violent hate. And that is the problem, because of their media profile, most non-Muslims now associate the word Muslim with an Abu Hamza hate figure spewing bile and vitriol. Indeed, most British journalists have gone out of their way to claim a ‘scoop' if they hear of any anti-western sentiment at any mosque in the country. But as Muslim women, the Sisterhood...

JEREMY McCLINTOCK: I'm sorry Tristan but you can't let this amateur hog the debate.

TP: Ok Jeremy, your right to reply.

JM: Thank you. That's what we have in a democracy - a reasoned and rational debate where we take turns in talking.

(turning to Awatif) I mean amateur, young woman, because you are incapable of seeing the bigger picture of a globalised world where political dissent is impossible because we've all got what we want. That's what Blair and Bush want for their children and it's certainly what I want for my two daughters and the other children I will be having.

WASSIM QADIR: So you're saying that it was an economic decision to invade Iraq.

JM: No I did not say that. I said that globalisation and capitalism, yes, capitalism, are the keys to the chubb lock of future harmony. This is not just economic but cultural as well. Yes, oil may have been a minor motive...

WILLIAM SHAWCROSS: Hang on there Jeremy. Oil had nothing to do with it; democracy is what Bush and Blair want to spread in the Muslim world and I for one support them, particularly in my new book: Heaven Over Hell. It's a romp of a read.

JM: Ok, sure William but you would agree that it's been a heck of a lucrative side effect.

[Gazing out of the studio window] WS: What?

JM: Iraqi black gold, my friend.

WS: Oh sure but then we haven't put carpet manufacturers out of business because we're in Afghanistan, now have we?

WQ: When you've finished carving up the world from the comfort of your armchair, do you think you could tell me why democracy has to be forced on to Muslim countries and societies.

JM: [whispers] I'll handle this one William.

I see that the Leopard has finally thrown off the mink coat to reveal its true colours.

WQ: Answer the question.

JM: In my own time. [pretentious pause] Right, it is clear that there are garden centre owners, small businessmen of all descriptions, as well as the odd female entrepreneur, all over the world. But in the Arab world, these people just don't know that that's what they are because of the invasive nature of the religion they are forced to serve.

WQ: Are you trivialising this issue....

JM: Just listen to the majority opinion in this country speak, for once.

Beheadings, ‘Chariot Law', or whatever it's called, awful food and no high street fashion are a blight on the lives of Arabs across the Middle East and this is a form of cultural incarceration that cannot be allowed to persist. I for one will stand up for the right of all human beings to be able to choose between Tesco and Sainsbury's. Look at Dubai, those guys have the right idea with their artificial islands and snow centres, and are the exception to a somewhat ugly rule.

And then there is our religion. It does speak its name but not too loudly and acts as a lovely brother to his unruly siblings, rather than the characteristics of Fred West which are so clearly present in Islam.

AU: You are an ignorant pig with nothing other than money on your mind.

TP: Now le...

WS: [Interrupting] Steady on there old girl! Let the chap finish his speech.

JM: [In calm statesman mode] Thank you Sir William, as you surely will be one day.

I resent the accusation. Money is just a means to an end but I pride myself on my ends, unlike some people, who just cower and don't inform their hosts of the activities of their less stable brethren.

WQ: It is this sort of vacuous, shallow and banal obsession that makes moderate Muslims nervous about the effect British and American policy is having on their brothers and sisters.

And McClintock, whoever you are - I've certainly never heard of you - you are a very poor communicator for a journalist.

JM: [Angrily]I am not a journalist, I am a war reporter and I've seen people who butchered Muslims in Bosnia and I did not applaud them. So think about that when you accuse me of anti-Islamist rhetoric!

AU: Nobody was calling you that...

JM: Oh yes, oh yes, here it comes, the softening of the voice before the unsheathing of the Saracen's blade. We should really read our history books a bit closer and pay more attention.

WQ: What are you talking about?

TP: Yuh, I'm getting a bit concerned that we're moving off the subject here guys. Remember this is a democracy, and let's return to that subject.

WS: [shouts] It's a language and they don't understand it. We must make them speak it!

JM: Hear Hear! I should be allowed to read pornography in Cairo or Tehran if I want to. As Walt Whitman said: "A test of democracy is a test of man's inner lusts."

TP: When did he say that?

JM: I can't remember but the point remains that Muslims, wherever they live, must accept that we white westerners are right and they are wrong. It is a competition in which we are destined to always finish first.

WQ: I could introduce you to some friends of mine who would strongly disagree with you.

WS: Stand back Jeremy, the Islaamo-fascist's going to throw something at you!

WQ: I'm just scratching my head, you imperialist pillock.

JM: How dare you call this man that defamatory name! [Sounds of muffled yelps and scuffling]

Ow! That is not on. Call the police! He went for my goolies (show degenerates further before being taken off air)